Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Hello and welcome back to the Control Alt Manufacturing podcast, Resetting and Rethinking Manufacturing. This podcast is helping explore some of the people, technologies and strategies that are driving the digital transformation of manufacturing. I am Stephanie Neal. I'm just one half of our podcast team. My co host Gary Cohen is here, but not on camera because we are here recording live at the CSIA conference in Baltimore. And Gary, although he is the master podcaster, he is taking on the role of videographer today. So it's been a great conference with amazing sessions and I'm excited to have John Sullivan joining me in person today.
John, thank you for joining me.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Absolutely. Happy to be on.
[00:00:59] Speaker A: Excellent. So let me provide everyone with a little bit of your background before we get started.
John Sullivan is a Vice President at DMC Inc. And has spent his career in control systems integration, industrial automation. Like many people in the industry, he started out as a hands on doer and built his value by taking on more work and solving problems himself. As his role grew, he had to figure out how to step back from the day to day time on work that was less urgent but more important for the long term. That shift was not easy and he's still learning from it today. John spends a lot of time helping others go through the same transition. He works with engineers and leaders who are trying to balance delivery leadership and strategic thinking without losing momentum. He has been chair of CSIA's Emerging Leaders Committee since 2020 and has spoken at many CSIA conferences, including this one in Baltimore. So, okay, John, let's get into it.
[00:02:02] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:02:03] Speaker A: Excellent. All right, first tell me a little bit about DMC and its relationship with csia.
[00:02:10] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. So dmc, we've been certified by CSIA for I think close to 17 years now.
The owner of DMC, the founder of DMC, Frank Reardon, has been on the CSIA board for many years. We're overall very involved. We have multiple different people in some CSI peer groups as well.
And then about as you mentioned, in 2020, when I was looking for some growth opportunities for myself, I ended up in the Emerging Leaders Committee steering bats, trying to drive the direction of that group.
[00:02:43] Speaker A: So, so what motivated you to invest so much energy into the Emerging Leaders Steering Committee?
[00:02:53] Speaker B: Honestly, it was more on accident for me. I was in a spot where I was really trying to kind of level it myself. And so I reached out to my boss who's again very involved with csia and I was like, hey, is there something inside CSIA that will help me? And they're like, yeah, there's this emerging leaders committee that will, I think, help make a difference there. And, and realistically, that committee had kind of folded a little bit with COVID times, and it didn't really exist. And so as I was trying to, like, figure out what I could do to consume from the Emerging Leaders committee, it kind of became clear that they needed someone to produce. And so I kind of jumped into that role. And, you know, we got some people who had previously been in it before, so there's a little bit of history. And then started to kind of build a new group and figure out what the group really is and what it wanted to be.
[00:03:39] Speaker A: So what, like, tell me a little more. Like, what is it?
[00:03:43] Speaker B: So that's a great question. It's got a little bit of a branding problem. I say the name, the name predates me. But realistically, you know, the CSIA is, you know, it was. It started out largely filled with owners of the company. And as the organization grew, I mean, you'll notice the conference actually dropped the executive conference into just the CSIA conference.
You know, CSIA as an organization has started to include more and more of like the next leaders. So, you know, the.
There's some level of people that need to kind of step into these leadership roles. As people are growing and, you know, organizations are growing, they need more leaders.
Other, you know, organizations have leaders stepping down. And so there's this idea that there's this next level of leader that needs some method of development, growth and engagement. And the emerging leader committee is really meant to try to engage those people, and it provides some value. But realistically, it's also there to engage the people who are those owners and leaders and help provide them information on how they can enable those next level of leaders. So we realistically, I get a lot of questions of like, am I too old or am I too senior or am I too junior to be in the emerging leaders? And the answer to that is generally no.
If you either are a leader at your organization who's looking to enable others, you're a great fit for the, you know, for that group. And if you're someone who's looking to find ways to get enabled and to kind of level up, then you're also kind of a great fit the target audience for that group. And so we kind of see a broad span. But the real focus, I'd say, is not just engaging emerging leaders. It's like it's providing value to all organizations to develop their emerging leaders.
[00:05:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
What's the key thing to develop the Next generation of leaders.
Is it more of the soft skills?
I mean, we talk a lot about developing the technical skills. There's, you know, certifications here at csia. But are you focused on something very different when you're talking about developing leadership down the line?
[00:05:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that, I mean you definitely, it's a lot of soft skills development, but I think that the thing that I see over and over again is actually really much more on the autonomy level and the like feeling of ownership.
You know, I spoke earlier today about the kind of the difference between working in the business and working on the business rate. Most of the people who are kind of, I'd say the emerging leader target or those people who are trying to level up, they started at the organization and their job was to do only work in the business. They shouldn't really be spending time to work on the business and making it better. And over time they need the autonomy and the realization that they can in fact make their company better and not just keep doing things the way they've been doing and then providing that autonomy and ownership so that you have the ability to go and solve problems not just the way that you're, you know, the, the owner of the company wants them solved, but the way you genuinely believe the best way to solve them and providing the people, you know, providing people the engagement to solve the problem towards the common goal.
[00:06:51] Speaker A: Do you think there's like, just from your perspective, do you think that there are different leadership challenges now for younger professionals in this industry than maybe previous generations, that maybe they didn't encounter it in the same way? Or maybe it's just as simple as AI sort of coming into the organization and causing new opportunities and new problems.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think things like AI and modern situations are the same problems under different names. I think that realistically from my perspective, it's really, you know, the autonomy is the autonomy and ability to engage and ability to make a difference and the space to make a difference and someone holding, you know, holding you accountable to make that difference, I feel like is one of those problems that kind of has, you know, rung true for a long time. I will say that like, I think that system integrators now are at a different spot just because of the way the industry kind of developed and grow, has, has grown. You know, I think that really a lot of companies started around the same time and now there are more starting up now. But there are a lot of companies inside CSIA that kind of started in the same five or ten year span and so they're all kind of aging in a similar manner. And so I think that there is a spot where we see a lot more leaders looking to step down. And you can see that in all the merger and acquisition work. You can see it in more and more people retiring, reaching that retirement age. And so I think it's kind of been like a little bit of a critical moment, which is why I think that organizations have been much more excited about putting their emerging leaders into conferences and finding the way to develop them. Because, you know, realistically those people are trying to, you know, train their replacement. And, you know, they want to, you know, they built the company and they want to now hand it off to someone that they're going to trust to do that when they're stepping down. And so, you know, I don't think that the problem, I don't, you know, I don't think there's any, like, particularly unique problems other than a lot of people are facing that same problem of how do you enable the next level of leader.
[00:08:53] Speaker A: So I mentioned earlier that you've presented at CSIA many times and you did a presentation today, and one of the themes in your session was shifting from being a great doer to enabling others.
Like just a quick recap of your, of your hour presentation. What was the main takeaway of that?
[00:09:16] Speaker B: Yeah, so the presentation was, I'd say a lot of individual, you know, tips and tricks. I'd say that if I'm like, kind of like summarizing into, you know, kind of like a couple key points.
I cover the Eisenhower matrix, which is a kind of two by two, where you're ranking things between how urgent they are and how important they are.
And you know, realistically, there's the urgent and important and that's usually the stuff that's like in the business. These are contract negotiations, projects that are not going well. These things that you just have to get done to keep the business operating.
And then there's the not urgent, but important. And these are like the strategic things that make the company, you know, the company operate better. If there's a problem in your process, well, sometimes you can just power through that, put your nose to the grindstone. But at some point in time, you have to step back and figure out how do we solve this problem instead of just keep, you know, and keep, instead of firefighting every time it pops up.
And so, you know, really kind of like focusing on like, what are those types of priorities and then also talking about what I would consider the not important or sorry, not urgent. But important things or. Sorry, the not urgent.
Sorry, the urgent but not important things, which I say are not necessarily not important to you, but still important to the organization. That's a really good spot to enable the next level of leader where you're basically giving them some autonomy to solve a. Solve a problem that doesn't need to be solved by you, kind of the doing only what you can do and do that realistically. We had Dan Heath talk earlier today as well. Again, a lot of actual same themes of what I had, although he said them much nicer than I did, but really just again, talking about the autonomy and the enablement of people and helping, you know, helping get people the opportunity to make the company a better place.
[00:10:57] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, so let me put you on the spot.
Was there a specific moment in your own career when you realized leadership meant creating opportunities for others rather than personally driving every outcome?
[00:11:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I.
I'm really good at fighting fires.
That's kind of the thing that I've been known of in my organization when projects are not going well, when things are not going well. You know, I. I was the engineer that after a bunch of travel, as an example, another project wasn't going well, and I was like, I don't want to travel anywhere, but I was kind of asked to kind of step in because the project was going south. And. And that's the type of thing that I kind of really lights me up is like, hey, this is not going well. And that's the whole reason I'm stepping in.
And so I kind of built my career on the back of putting. On putting out a lot of fires. And I'd say it was a couple years ago when, you know, the.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: The.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: My kind of second command in the Denver office who's now a director at dmc, was, you know, he had a problem, and I kind of immediately went into firefighting mode and I just basically started solving all the problems. And then at the end of that, he's like, but now how do I do that next time so I don't have to call you? And it was. It was just like that. Like, one question is like, okay, like, I.
I am good at firefighting. I enjoy firefighting. But realistically, that was a spot where now every time I go to put out a fire, I make sure someone else is coming along with me so they can see how I put out that fire and how I did it, and, you know, what I'm doing to make that successful and really kind of enabling that. So that was, I think, a really transformative moment for me of realizing that, yeah, I'm still putting out fires, but I'm bringing someone along with me while I do it.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: So that's really interesting because a lot of organizations, you know, people, they gain their credibility because they're the ones who put out the fire or can solve the hardest problems. So, you know, taking a step back, like how, how do you train yourself or train other leaders to let go of that identity and become more strategic without feeling disconnected from the work?
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Yeah, if you figure that out, let me know.
But no, I mean, I think that's really the fundamental challenge that we all find. And I think the biggest part of that is it's not a one size fits all, right? Each organization is different, each person's different.
I have a handful of people that I'm kind of mentoring inside my organization and how I help each of those people is different.
They're all somewhat like me, but none of them are exactly like me. And what things they're good at and what things they can teach me and what things that they can do in the organization are definitely different. And so part of it is just finding a mix of the interest and the capability and just really giving some room for those things to happen.
And I think part of that also is building some culture around the fact that you can make the company a better place and some space.
I shared in my talk today, like kind of the moment, like early on in my career, six months out of school, I'm 21, I, you know, I am working for a 25 person system integrator at the time.
And you know, there this expectation that you're going to bill enough hours and that's really it, like your sole thing is to work in the business, not on the business. But I, you know, at the time, whenever you'd go on site, you'd have a gallon Ziploc bag with a bunch of different serial cables and serial connectors and ethernet cables. And I was like, well, where do I get my, you know, where do I get my Ziploc bag? And they're like, well, you just go to Micro center and buy the things you need.
And I kind of asked like, well, can I make this better? Can I solve this problem? Right? And you know, at the time, the owner in 2009 was, you know, when this was, it's a rough year to invest in anything. Everyone's just really focused on billing out. But he's like, yep, here's a couple hundred bucks, like, go make this better. And now like at the time I was like, okay, like I now have the opportunity and autonomy and it maybe took me a couple hours of work and, you know, a couple hundred dollars, but I had like, made the business better than when, you know, when I, you know, before I had the opportunity and that I think that mindset shift of like, I am allowed to and encouraged to make DMC a better place was a really transformative thing. And you know, for me, that was six months out of my career when 99.9% of my work was to work at the business. And you know, but that was like a moment for me to see that as long as I'm willing to put in the work and find ways to make the company operate better, the company is going to support me in making that happen.
[00:15:30] Speaker A: Mm.
So, like, really interesting. And just like you're the chair of the CSIA Emergent Leaders Committee and you know, we talk about, you know, trying to nurture this next generation of leaders. I'm just curious, are like, are there common questions or concerns if we flip the script, you know, from the younger generation that, you know, we're trying to, to bring into this solutions oriented integration space?
Are there common concerns or questions that you hear like day after day when you're speaking with these folks?
[00:16:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd say the number one is where do you find the time.
Time constraint is a really big part of it. And how do you prioritize and value and hold accountable and make that time to make those things happen?
I think is probably like the number one challenge I think people face.
And then, yeah, I think that just really getting into, you know, what, what are the right opportunities for them to do and what are the right opportunities to like, give up that ownership? Right. How do, how do you let go of the things that you're ultimately going to be like, responsible for the quality of and trust someone else to take that to the spot. You need to, you know, you need
[00:16:53] Speaker A: to go from the company side. Are there common mistakes made there as we're trying to develop future leaders inside this technical organization? Is it maybe not giving them ownership of something or not giving them the green light to make their own decisions or, you know, any thoughts on that?
[00:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd say that, you know, it is certainly some level of autonomy, not giving them the right autonomy or the ability to do that. Especially as the organization gets bigger, it becomes like an us versus them. And you know, the idea is that, well, if I want to change the company or improve the company, I just have to provide some feedback and some senior leader is Going to make the change and not the ability for you to be the change that you want to see. And it becomes harder as a company gets bigger. You certainly can't have everyone working exclusively on the business. You need enough people building hours and driving revenue to make that happen. And I think, I think the enablement is a really challenging spot. Right. I think that it's, it's really easy to just keep doing the things that are working and not make those changes and, you know, not give people the autonomy they need to solve the problems. And then also, I'd say part of that's also the trust in solving the problems they're weighing through.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: Right.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: Like I, if I have a problem, I generally have a way I would approach that. And if I hand that problem to someone else and they don't approach it the same way, I have to be ready to accept it. As long as they solve, as long as we, as long as we reach the end goal that we're targeting, the way they solve that problem is uniquely theirs. And you know, I can't micromanage, I can't overly dictate that if I want them to have that level of engagement autonomy that really matters. And I think that that's a really challenging one for many organizations. It's especially challenging one for me in that like I, you have to align on the direction this is the way we're going. This is where we want to be at the end goal. But I trust you to get, get us there and I trust you to bring me in if you need help. But I'm not going to walk you through every step of getting from point A to point B. I just need to make sure that we're on our way to point B.
[00:19:04] Speaker A: Sure. One last question. You know, since we are here at the CSIA conference and you are the chair of the emerging leaders, how is that group evolving? I mean, where do you see it going in the future? Or what is the main message that you're trying to relay here at the conference?
[00:19:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd say the main message I'm trying to relay is that there's a lot of value in that group and that we need people to share this amongst more people in the organization and that we also don't need just people in this little tiny window of emerging leaders. We need people, a broad spectrum of things. There's, there's no one who's too senior or too junior to be part of the emerging leaders group. The special interest group really is focused on enabling those people. But we need people across the full organization to really make that happen.
So that's certainly a spot there. So the emerging leaders, just as some context for some of the things that we do, we typically have one or two talks at the conference. We have a reception on the first evening where we kind of allow people to network and connect.
Then there's also a lunch where again, just is focused on networking and connecting. And then between the conference, we run around three to four what we call special interest group or SIG meetings. And these are like part webinar, part interactive series. So, you know, webinar has kind of become a bad word where like, you know, sit there and everyone does their emails while they pretend to listen to you talk, which is not really how the original leaders runs our stuff. We generally have about 15 to 20 minutes of talking. And then we break into small groups and everyone's got their camera on, they're talking, they're connecting with each other, and they're actually solving real problems inside the organization. So we talk and then we put into practice the things we're doing.
So we've got an upcoming one that is in July that is focused on contract and contract negotiation.
Our last one, which was on practical uses for AI, was very well attended, about 120 registrated registrants for that, whereas our first one was like 15 people. So, you know, it's the organization. The, you know, there's two parts. There's a steering committee, and these people help decide what. What we're going to present on all the topics, help put together all these events. That's a smaller committee of people, although we are looking to recruit a couple more. So I, you know, if there's people interested in that, I definitely encourage them to reach out to me. And then there's the special interest group meetings and the presentation themselves, which are basically no time commitment, you know, for very little time commitment other than attending the meeting. And that's just a spot for, you know, individuals to consume and to be part of that connection. But just, you know, come expecting to turn your camera on and engage and not just be presented at.
[00:21:52] Speaker A: Well, I'm sure everybody is appreciative of your time and everything that you do to make this committee successful. And, you know, thank you, John, for sitting down with me today and talking more about this. And it's really about education. Right. But also, you know, the practical approaches. So really appreciate your time.
So again, thanks to our listeners for tuning into the Control Alt Manufacturing podcast. You can find us on Control Engineering or anywhere you get your podcast again. This is Stephanie Neal with WTWH Media Control Engineering and Control Alt Manufacturing signing off from Baltuber.
